[dcburners] DC BURNERS CONSENT CULTURE STATEMENT

Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an important topic.

I personally give and receive frequent hugs without explicitly negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where hugging as a form of greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am not an advocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.

It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.

As a community, and as individuals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective.

I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.

—Alex Dancingmantis

> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi wrote:
>
> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>
> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>
> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity without defaulting to extreme corners and personal attacks or the conversation will go nowhere.
>
> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>
> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture toward something better.
>
> Debbi
>
> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 > wrote:
> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
> Stay classy, and good day.
>
> Love you guys!
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, < <>> wrote:
> Thank you, Mama J!
>
> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.
>
> William/aka Dobromir
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn > wrote:
> >
> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
> >
> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
> >
> > I get that.
> >
> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
> >
> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
> >
> > Jessie / Mama J
> > --
> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> > Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>
>
>
>
> --
> **********
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178

the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by
simply asking.

even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with
someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like
99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option,
should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.

we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected,
concretely.

i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't
know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to
"interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you
can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
read.

consent is super, super duper easy to inquire after, yal. it doesn't have
to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an
affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting
it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.

asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way,
is bunk. let's not? yea!

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis
wrote:

> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
> important topic.
>
> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without explicitly negotiating
> consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where hugging as a
> form of greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is
> usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel
> comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret
> the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t
> want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing
> responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion
> would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am not an ad
> vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and
> higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have
> been a strong advocate for these things.
>
> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social
> expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each
> other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have
> serious social consequences. It is also *very* important to acknowledge
> that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of
> fear and intimidation have *far* more serious consequences. As for
> individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may
> cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is
> human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>
> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our
> long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
> silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life
> experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community,
> create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional
> intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that
> communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we
> disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their
> feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack)
> will help them listen and gain perspective.
>
> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I
> agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
> positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not
> from creating divisions.
>
> —Alex Dancingmantis
>
>
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi wrote:
>
> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is
> so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision
> making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>
> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these
> are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to
> keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>
> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and
> sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or
> the conversation will go nowhere.
>
> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you
> to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
> opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is
> productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>
> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift
> our culture toward something better.
>
> Debbi
>
> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 wrote:
>
>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>
>> Love you guys!
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, <> wrote:
>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>> #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>
>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long
>> hug...) and know if wanted.
>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior
>> and say 'no'.
>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner
>> should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who
>> thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>
>> William/aka Dobromir
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in
>> our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's
>> allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to
>> mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>> >
>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key
>> and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than
>> its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from
>> creepy to outright criminal.
>> >
>> > I get that.
>> >
>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing
>> cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of
>> hurt.
>> >
>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>> >
>> > Jessie / Mama J
>> > --
>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> > Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> **********
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>

That’s fine and dandy to say, but it ignores the cultural meaning of hugs… or at least assumes that your cultural values are more important than other’s. Would you apply the same test to a hand-shake at a job interview? I have participated in a few (as interviewer or interviewee), and I have never had someone ask permission to shake my hand.

When I meet friends of my French mother, I frequently get kissed in greeting. This ends up being somewhat awkward when I don’t expect it… Or when I don’t know whether their regional custom is two kisses or three. However, I take it in the spirit intended. I have never been asked for permission, and frankly, would feel very strange and put off if they asked to kiss me.

I don’t hug strangers in greeting because I get physical satisfaction out of it. I don’t hug strangers because I want a hug. I hug potential friends as a cultural demonstration of openness, and trust. Asking to permission to hug someone that comes from a culture that commonly hugs imbues the hug with additional meaning. Instead of participating in an expected behavior, you are asking for something from someone. It takes a symmetrical exchange and makes it asymmetrical.

I think it is important to point out that this is very different than negotiating consent in sex play. In that case, instead of meeting culturally expected norms, you are trying to determine what the parties involved desire personally.

The point, however, is if you think you have an obvious answer or easy solution (other than "don’t rape people” - which I think we all agree on) to complex and long standing problems of human interaction, you probably have an overly simplistic or narrow perspective of the situation.

—Alex

> On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM, beatpony wrote:
>
> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by simply asking.
>
> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>
> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected, concretely.
>
> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately read.
>
> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>
> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis > wrote:
> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an important topic.
>
> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without explicitly negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>
> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>
> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective.
>
> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.
>
> —Alex Dancingmantis
>
>
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi > wrote:
>>
>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>
>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>
>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or the conversation will go nowhere.
>>
>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>
>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture toward something better.
>>
>> Debbi
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 > wrote:
>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>
>> Love y ou guys!
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, < <>> wrote:
>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>
>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>
>> William/aka Dobromir
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn > wrote:
>> >
>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>> >
>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
>> >
>> > I get that.
>> >
>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>> >
>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>> >
>> > Jessie / Mama J
>> > --
>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> > Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> **********
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178

Of course, maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners. In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would strongly disagree with you.

—Alex

> On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM, beatpony wrote:
>
> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by simply asking.
>
> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>
> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected, concretely.
>
> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately read.
>
> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>
> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis > wrote:
> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an important topic.
>
> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without explicitly negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>
> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>
> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective.
>
> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.
>
> —Alex Dancingmantis
>
>
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi > wrote:
>>
>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>
>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>
>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or the conversation will go nowhere.
>>
>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>
>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture toward something better.
>>
>> Debbi
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 > wrote:
>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>
>> Love y ou guys!
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, < <>> wrote:
>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>
>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>
>> William/aka Dobromir
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn > wrote:
>> >
>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>> >
>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
>> >
>> > I get that.
>> >
>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>> >
>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>> >
>> > Jessie / Mama J
>> > --
>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> > Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> **********
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178

yea it continues that the only thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability
to hug people who might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them --
without obtaining consent.

also bodily autonomy, including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.

also, isn't this conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the
community / our pretty busted national culture?

hugs are dope. hug people you know want to be hugged. don't know? ask.
where is the issue?

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis
wrote:

> Of course, maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting
> shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners. In that case, I
> would respect your opinion… but with my personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan
> upbringing I would strongly disagree with you.
>
> —Alex
>
> On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM, beatpony wrote:
>
> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
> working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by
> simply askin g.
>
> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with
> someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like
> 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option,
> should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>
> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected,
> concretely.
>
> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or
> didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to
> "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you
> can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
> read.
>
> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't have
> to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an
> affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting
> it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>
> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout
> way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
>> important topic.
>>
>> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without expli citly
>> negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where
>> hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I
>> think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone
>> doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might
>> misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly
>> saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I
>> placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this
>> discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am
>> not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community
>> standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and
>> professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>>
>> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social
>> expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each
>> other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have
>> serious social consequences. It is also *very* important to acknowledge
>> that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of
>> fear and intimidation have *far* more serious consequences. As for
>> individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may
>> cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is
>> human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>>
>> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our
>> long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
>> silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life
>> experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community,
>> create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional
>> intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that
>> communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we
>> disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their
>> feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack)
>> will help them listen and gain perspective.
>>
>> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I
>> agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
>> positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not
>> from creating divisions.
>>
>> —Alex Dancingmantis
>>
>>
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi wrote:
>>
>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is
>> so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision
>> making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>
>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these
>> are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to
>> keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>
>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and
>> sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or
>> the conversation will go nowhere.
>>
>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you
>> to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
>> opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is
>> productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>
>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift
>> our culture toward something better.
>>
>> Debbi
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 wrote:
>>
>>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>>
>>> Love y ou guys!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, <> wrote:
>>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
>>> .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>>
>>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long
>>> hug...) and know if wanted.
>>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior
>>> and say 'no'.
>>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a
>>> Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who
>>> thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>>
>>> William/aka Dobromir
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in
>>> our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's
>>> allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to
>>> mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>>> >
>>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key
>>> and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than
>>> its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from
>>> creepy to outright criminal.
>>> >
>>> > I get that.
>>> >
>>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing
>>> cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of
>>> hurt.
>>> >
>>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>>> >
>>> > Jessie / Mama J
>>> > --
>>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> > Stop emails for this post:
>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> Stop emails for this post:
>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> **********
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>

No. You are intentionally misreading what I am saying. I am saying that within many groups, people would NOT reasonably assume that someone would “have an issue with you hugging them” unless they indicated otherwise (verbally or non-verbally), because hugging is a cultural norm. This becomes an issue in cross-cultural interaction where expectations are different.

And… I think that “changing cultural modes” is EXACTLY what this conversation is about, and is absolutely necessary. I wouldn’t personally use a phrase as loaded as “rape culture”, but If you support efforts to ensure the respect of consent, and to make violations of an individual’s sense of of safety and autonomy socially unacceptable, you are attempting to “change culture”.

—Alex

> On Dec 2, 2015, at 3:00 PM, beatpony wrote:
>
> yea it continues that the only thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability to hug people who might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them -- without obtaining consent.
>
> also bodily autonomy, including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.
>
> also, isn't this conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the community / our pretty busted national culture?
>
> hugs are dope. hug people you know want to be hugged. don't know? ask. where is the issue?
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis > wrote:
> Of course, maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners. In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would strongly disagree with you.
>
> —Alex
>
>> On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM, beatpony > wrote:
>>
>> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by simply askin g.
>>
>> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>>
>> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected, concretely.
>>
>> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately read.
>>
>> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>>
>> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis > wrote:
>> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an important topic.
>>
>> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without expli citly negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>>
>> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>>
>> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective.
>>
>> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.
>>
>> —Alex Dancingmantis
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi > wrote:
>>>
>>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>>
>>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>>
>>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or the conversation will go nowhere.
>>>
>>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>>
>>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture toward something better.
>>>
>>> Debbi
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 > wrote:
>>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>>
>>> Love y ou guys!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, < <>> wrote:
>>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>>
>>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
>>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
>>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>>
>>> William/aka Dobromir
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>>> >
>>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
>>> >
>>> > I get that.
>>> >
>>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>>> >
>>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>>> >
>>> > Jessie / Mama J
>>> > --
>>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> > Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> **********
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178

Not to diminish the horror of the creepy hugger but it would surprise me if
The Board were setting up a commission to discuss proper hug etiquette.

As you have heard from others on this thread it would seem as though sexual
assault violations have occurred that are serious enough for The Board to
take this step. I would be interested in hearing opinions on:

1. Teasing out the truth of the alleged violation giving due consideration
to both parties.

2. Appropriate community response to said allegations.

3. How third parties should react when they hear the rumors.

This is a tricky subject and email is a poor communication tool. Please
alow everyone the benefit of the doubt in this discussion if they do not
perfectly articulate every concieveable point.

- Matt
On Dec 2, 2015 5:15 PM, "beatpony" wrote:

> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
> working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by
> simply asking.
>
> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with
> someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like
> 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option,
> should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>
> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected,
> concretely.
>
> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or
> didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to
> "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you
> can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
> read.
>
> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't have
> to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an
> affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting
> it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>
> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout
> way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
>> important topic.
>>
>> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without explicitly
>> negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where
>> hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I
>> think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone
>> doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might
>> misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly
>> saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I
>> placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this
>> discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am
>> not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community
>> standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and
>> professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>>
>> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social
>> expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each
>> other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have
>> serious social consequences. It is also *very* important to acknowledge
>> that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of
>> fear and intimidation have *far* more serious consequences. As for
>> individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may
>> cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is
>> human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>>
>> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our
>> long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
>> silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life
>> experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community,
>> create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional
>> intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that
>> communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we
>> disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their
>> feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack)
>> will help them listen and gain perspective.
>>
>> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I
>> agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
>> positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not
>> from creating divisions.
>>
>> —Alex Dancingmantis
>>
>>
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi wrote:
>>
>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is
>> so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision
>> making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>
>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these
>> are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to
>> keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>
>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and
>> sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or
>> the conversation will go nowhere.
>>
>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you
>> to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
>> opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is
>> productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>
>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift
>> our culture toward something better.
>>
>> Debbi
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 wrote:
>>
>>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>>
>>> Love y ou guys!
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, <> wrote:
>>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
>>> .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>>
>>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long
>>> hug...) and know if wanted.
>>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior
>>> and say 'no'.
>>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a
>>> Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who
>>> thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>>
>>> William/aka Dobromir
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in
>>> our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's
>>> allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to
>>> mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>>> >
>>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key
>>> and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than
>>> its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from
>>> creepy to outright criminal.
>>> >
>>> > I get that.
>>> >
>>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing
>>> cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of
>>> hurt.
>>> >
>>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>>> >
>>> > Jessie / Mama J
>>> > --
>>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> > Stop emails for this post:
>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> Stop emails for this post:
>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> **********
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>

Thank you Matt. This is not *only* about hugs. Hugs are the tip of the iceberg, the visible problem that everyone can see and identify with. It’s worth talking about, but it is not the only issue here. The underlying problem of consent in our community is HUGE.

I will say a few things about hugs, referencing emails from others that have come since. I view hugs and the offer/insistence on hugs as a good way to judge how people handle boundaries. If someone new hugs me without asking, I have a mental note that this person doesn’t approach consent in as serious a way as I do. If someone gets upset when I tell them I don’t want a hug, I know that they don’t handle boundaries being set very well. If someone hugs me after I have told them no, or continues to hug me once I have indicated I was done, or worse, takes the hug into something else, touching me inappropriately, etc, I know that this person is actively violating my consent, and I proceed with caution in any future interactions. Conversely, when I meet someone new, and I tell them I don’t want to hug, if they are cool with that, I am much more likely to hug them in the future. It’s a good test, a simple boundary to set, to see how they react.

People who find the idea of asking for consent before hugging to be “anti Burner” or “ruining the vibe” or whatever, I am very wary of. Your desire to force physical intimacy on me does not trump my bodily autonomy. Knowing that your action is wanted and reciprocated is a way better feeling than forcing a hug on someone who might not want it.

Because I am sensitive to this, I ask people “Do you hug?” with my arms slightly open, and raise my shoulders in a friendly shrug. If they say no, I ask if they’d like a handshake or a high five, or I just wave.

One of my favorite interactions with someone was a naked gentleman asking me “Do you hug naked people?” before going in for it. What a charming way to ask, while acknowledging that it might be a different answer were he clothed.

Now, finally. Because we are a radically inclusive community, we attract a certain amount of predators. Some of them will use the hugging culture as an excuse to test boundaries. Much like I use hugs to test if people are safe for me, predators can use the introductory hug to see how far they can take it before being called out. Some people get off on making others uncomfortable. Others are looking for meek, quiet victims. Changing the culture so that asking before hugging becomes the norm makes it easier for people who are shy, new, unsure, whatever, to speak up when they feel uncomfortable.

Asking is SO SEXY.

Caitlin Phillips
Rebound Designs
www.rebound-designs.com

> On Dec 2, 2015, at 6:12 PM, brownmattc wrote:
>
> Not to diminish the horror of the creepy hugger but it would surprise me if The Board were setting up a commission to discuss proper hug etiquette.
>
> As you have heard from others on this thread it would seem as though sexual assault violations have occurred that are serious enough for The Board to take this step. I would be interested in hearing opinions on:
>
> 1. Teasing out the truth of the alleged violation giving due consideration to both parties.
>
> 2. Appropriate community response to said allegations.
>
> 3. How third parties should react when they hear the rumors.
>
> This is a tricky subject and email is a poor communication tool. Please alow everyone the benefit of the doubt in this discussion if they do not perfectly articulate every concieveable point.
>
> - Matt
>
> On Dec 2, 2015 5:15 PM, "beatpony" > wrote:
> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by simply asking.
>
> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>
> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected, concretely.
>
> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately read.
>
> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>
> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis > wrote:
> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an important topic.
>
> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without explicitly negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>
> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>
> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective.
>
> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.
>
> —Alex Dancingmantis
>
>
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi > wrote:
>>
>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>
>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>
>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or the conversation will go nowhere.
>>
>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>
>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture toward something better.
>>
>> Debbi
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 > wrote:
>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>
>> Love y ou guys!
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, < <>> wrote:
>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>
>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>
>> William/aka Dobromir
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn > wrote:
>> >
>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>> >
>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
>> >
>> > I get that.
>> >
>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>> >
>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>> >
>> > Jessie / Mama J
>> > --
>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> > Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> **********
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178

Caitlin,

I am in agreement. Noting a person's approach to (consent to) hugging is a
great way to get to understand their attitude toward other interactions
with people, and that attitude can carry on to more intimate interactions.

Sometimes a person wanting to hug won't care about the fact that another
person has their own thoughts about who else can touch their body. They
won't consider this option, and thus they are being in-considerate.

And sometimes the indiscriminate hugger is just so new to everything they
assume this is just something that's done. Our culture does favor the hug.
But knowing the other party wants a hug still needs to happen. This can't
be assumed.

The stakes are less with hugs than more intimate interactions, but it is
useful to flush out an attitude -- or lack of consideration -- that can be
carried onward. When I think of it, I try to use those incidents I see as
"teachable moments".

And then there are some people we realize after enough tries, they can't be
taught. Then it's time to get the event leaders together and make sure that
person isn't coming to events any more.

Love,

Blue

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 7:26 PM, cphillips
wrote:

> Thank you Matt. This is not *only* about hugs. Hugs are the tip of the
> iceberg, the visible problem that everyone can see and identify with. It’s
> worth talking about, but it is not the only issue here. The underlying
> problem of consent in our community is HUGE.
>
> I will say a few things about hugs, referencing emails from others that
> have come since. I view hugs and the offer/insistence on hugs as a good
> way to judge how people handle boundaries. If someone new hugs me without
> asking, I have a mental note that this person doesn’t approach consent in
> as serious a way as I do. If someone gets upset when I tell them I don’t
> want a hug, I know that they don’t handle boundaries being set very well .
> If someone hugs me after I have told them no, or continues to hug me once I
> have indicated I was done, or worse, takes the hug into something else,
> touching me inappropriately, etc, I know that this person is actively
> violating my consent, and I proceed with caution in any future
> interactions. Conversely, when I meet someone new, and I tell them I don’t
> want to hug, if they are cool with that, I am much more likely to hug them
> in the future. It’s a good test, a simple boundary to set, to see how they
> react.
>
> People who find the idea of asking for consent before hugging to be “anti
> Burner” or “ruining the vibe” or whatever, I am very wary of. Your desire
> to force physical intimacy on me does not trump my bodily autonomy.
> Knowing that your action is wanted and reciprocated is a way better feeling
> than forcing a hug on someone who might not want it.
>
> Because I am sensitive to this, I ask people “Do you hug?” with my arms
> slightly open, and raise my shoulders in a friendly shrug. If they say no,
> I ask if they’d like a handshake or a high five, or I just wave.
>
> One of my favorite interactions with someone was a naked gentleman asking
> me “Do you hug naked people?” before going in for it. What a charming way
> to ask, while acknowledging that it might be a different answer were he
> clothed.
>
> Now, finally. Because we are a radically inclusive community, we attract
> a certain amount of predators. Some of them will use the hugging culture
> as an excuse to test boundaries. Much like I use hugs to test if people
> are safe for me, predators can use the introductory hug to see how far they
> can take it before being called out. Some people get off on maki ng others
> uncomfortable. Others are looking for meek, quiet victims. Changing the
> culture so that asking before hugging becomes the norm makes it easier for
> people who are shy, new, unsure, whatever, to speak up when they feel
> uncomfortable.
>
> Asking is SO SEXY.
>
> Caitlin Phillips
> Rebound Designs
> www.rebound-designs.com
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2015, at 6:12 PM, brownmattc wrote:
>
> Not to diminish the horror of the creepy hugger but it would surprise me
> if The Board were setting up a commission to discuss proper hug etiquette.
>
> As you have heard from others on this thread it would seem as though
> sexual assault violations have occurred that are serious enough for The
> Board to take this step. I would be interested in hearing opinions on:
>
> 1. Teasing out the truth of the alleged violation giving due consideration
> to both parties.
>
> 2. Appropriate community response to said allegations.
>
> 3. How third parties should react when they hear the rumors.
>
> This is a tricky subject and em ail is a poor communication tool. Please
> alow everyone the benefit of the doubt in this discussion if they do not
> perfectly articulate every concieveable point.
>
> - Matt
> On Dec 2, 2015 5:15 PM, "beatpony" wrote:
>
>> the danger of giving a hug that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
>> working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by
>> simply asking.
>>
>> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with
>> someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like
>> 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option,
>> should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
>>
>> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected,
>> concretely.
>>
>> i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, som eone i didn't know (or
>> didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any reason) tried to
>> "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you
>> can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
>> read.
>>
>> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal. it doesn't
>> have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an
>> affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting
>> it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.
>>
>> asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout
>> way, is bunk. let's not? yea!
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
>>> important topic.
>>>
>>> I personally give and receive frequent hugs without expli citly
>>> negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple communities where
>>> hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I
>>> think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone
>>> doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might
>>> misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly
>>> saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I
>>> placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this
>>> discussion would seem to characterize it this way. Does that mean that I am
>>> not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community
>>> standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and
>>> professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
>>>
>>> It is a simple truth that people have different cultures and social
>>> expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each
>>> other’s intentions, and that perceptions of predatory behavior may have
>>> serious social consequences. It is also *very* important to acknowledge
>>> that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of
>>> fear and intimidation have *far* more serious consequences. As for
>>> individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may
>>> cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is
>>> human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent.
>>>
>>> As a community, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our
>>> long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
>>> silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life
>>> experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community,
>>> create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional
>>> intelligence? If we want the second, we need to acknowledge that
>>> communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we
>>> disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their
>>> feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack)
>>> will help them listen and gain perspective.
>>>
>>> I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I
>>> agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
>>> positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not
>>> from creating divisions.
>>>
>>> —Alex Dancingmantis
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi wrote:
>>>
>>> Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there
>>> is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor
>>> decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors.
>>>
>>> I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize
>>> these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder
>>> to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up.
>>>
>>> We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and
>>> sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or
>>> the conversation will go nowhere.
>>>
>>> If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you
>>> to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
>>> opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is
>>> productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive.
>>>
>>> I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift
>>> our culture toward something better.
>>>
>>> Debbi
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there.
>>>> Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes.
>>>> Stay classy, and good day.
>>>>
>>>> Love y ou guys!
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05 PM, <> wrote:
>>>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
>>>> .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>>>
>>>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long
>>>> hug...) and know if wanted.
>>>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior
>>>> and say 'no'.
>>>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a
>>>> Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
>>>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people
>>>> who thing a Burner makes them cool.
>>>>
>>>> William/aka Dobromir
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture**
>>>> in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's
>>>> allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to
>>>> mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>>>> >
>>>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key
>>>> and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than
>>>> its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from
>>>> creepy to outright criminal.
>>>> >
>>>> > I get that.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing
>>>> cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of
>>>> hurt.
>>>> >
>>>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>>>> >
>>>> > Jessie / Mama J
>>>> > --
>>>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>>> > Stop emails for this post:
>>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>>>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>>> Stop emails for this post:
>>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> **********
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>>> Stop emails for this post:
>>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
>> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>>
>> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>
>
> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/178
> Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post:
> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/178
>
>