Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First

I've been following this discussion and appreciate the honesty and
open-mindedness that people have been showing for the most part. While I
personally don't mind hugs (especially from people I know), I don't think
I've ever been to a burn where I haven't heard people expressing
frustration at unwanted touching, particularly hugs. I don't think hugging
is any more rooted in the culture than discomfort with hugging. Both have
probably been there from the beginning. Maybe people just feel more
comfortable talking about it now that discussions around consent have grown
more and more common. It seems weirdly entitled to go around thinking
everyone should want you to touch them and radically noninclusive to argue
for a space where the default assumption is that everyone wants to be
touched. Also, seems pretty straightforward to not touch people without
some indication that it's ok. This probably something we should doing
better as a community than the default world, not worse.

Also, I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned more, but this appears to be
a gendered issue: women being the recipients of most of the unwanted
attention and men being the source. It's worth considering whether the
sides of this discussion breakdown along gendered lines. I'd particularly
hope that straight cis-men lend an open ear to others who may have very
different experiences based on their gender and sexual orientation.

<3

~PJ

PJ Rey

pjrey.tumblr.com

University of Maryland
Department of Sociology

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 7:08 PM, <> wrote:

> wow! I never knew this was worthy of such a discussion. when I was 1st
> introduced to the burner community over 10 yrs ago, hugging was not the
> norm for me but, it seemed the norm and I liked it. "nice loving community"
> I thought, went along with it and liked it.
> All know burner friends just give me a hug, making me feel good and loved.
> If I am introduced or introduce myself and they offer me a handshake, I
> simply say "I prefer a hug" and so far nobody has said "I don't" (us guys
> usually do both) but if anyone ever does I would most certainly respect
> their requests and preference! even if they only would except a fist bump
> :-)
>
> Lunar
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 12/6/15, SpaceVixen wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
> To: dcburners@dcburners.org
> Date: Sunday, December 6, 2015, 6:25 PM
>
> Finally! The discussion of
> creepy hug avoidance I have longed for in the Burner
> community. I’ve always been a non-huggy
> person, and when I first started in the burner community, I
> got a lot of pro-hugging propaganda from the touchy-feely
> brigade. Like there was something psychologically wrong with
> me for not greeting people immediately with hugs, or I’d
> been terribly brainwashed damaged by our evil uptight
> non-hugging mainstream culture, ecetera. You guys know
> exactly what I’m talking about, don’t you?
> So it’s great to see people
> finally saying that ok, maybe some people just are naturally
> non-huggers, and that’s fine, and that all the pressure to
> hug or be judged as un-burnery is unfairly alienating and
> exclusionary to those of us who just aren’t naturally as
> huggy as others. From: lellykong [mailto:lellykong@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 2:47 PM
> To: dcburners@dcburners.org
> Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not
> To Ask First First of all, I love you. So
> glad this convo is happening. I second Debbi, beatpony,
> & Kathryn's perspective. Consent is so easy to ask
> about & makes the interaction so much more enjoyable.
> One simple way I might suggest is the offer of "This
> way" (one hand extended to shake hands) "Or this
> way" (both arms extended to hug). Followed up with a
> kind word that either way is all good, like, "Works for
> me!" Then mov
> ing on to "How are you?" without making it into a
> "thing." Yes, this is quite detailed, but that is
> what some folks need, & clarity goes hand in hand with
> consent. Quick. Easy. Fun. Non-confrontational. Consent.
> Yay!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Kenneth
> wrote:Hey
> all i love to hug all. People, pets, trees, girls, boys,
> skinny , thick, attractive to various degrees .. even people
> of any religion or even atheists!!! Gasp! Please... hug me
> anytine... i even like those awkwardly long hugs that you
> just keep on hugging till all the huggin that needs to get
> done is done! On
> Dec 2, 2015 6:19 PM, "Kathryn McCulley"
> wrote:I, personally, prefer not to be hugged without
> consent (until I know someone well and we establish standing
> consent for hugs). I don't personally experience someone
> hugging me without my permission as as major a violation as
> it is clear to me some other people in this conversation do,
> but it is definitely a violation which does make me (often
> intensely) uncomfortable. I'm socialized to generally go
> along with it to avoid awkwardness, hurt feelings, and
> unpredictable negative reactions*. Yes, it is my
> responsibility to enforce my own boundaries by informing
> people if it's relevant (because how else would they
> know?), but this is a preference of mine which I care about
> sig nificantly but often less than I care about not making
> people feel bad (or risking potential backlash).Alex,
> I find your perspective a little confusing. We are not in
> France where the social norm is cheek-kissing. We are all
> part of a hippy/left
> ist (& often Pagan) community, and clearly (based on
> this conversation and also my experience) there is not a
> universal norm about whether to hug strangers without asking
> or not. (In my leftist circles, you ask, period. Not doing
> so is a definite faux pas and may cause people to keep an
> eye out in case you violate other boundaries.) It sounds
> like you think the norm is hugging and to ask first would be
> changing the norm, while my experience is that it varies
> wildly.Are you saying that you find the idea of you,
> personally, asking other Burners (who you have now been told
> explicitly at least some of will find you hugging them
> without asking to be a negative experience) whether you may
> hug them to be unacceptable because you mean it as a sign of
> openness and trust and so they ought to take it as you
> intend it?If so, that does not sound like actual
> openness to me. You're saying that your idea of what
> 'should' be the cultural norn and meaning not o
> nly trumps that of other people in this community but ALSO
> that you don't care if you're making people
> uncomfortable/violating their boundaries as long as you
> meant well. I don't understand this. Can you explain it
> to me? Did I misunderstand?I was also confused by
> your statement about it imbuing the act with more meaning. I
> thought you wanted to mean things with it (honesty,
> openness)? What additional meaning do you find asking to
> add, if not that you respect the other person (which is what
> it means to me)?I can see that "May I hug
> you?" might sound like an ask in a way which creates
> the power imbalance you mentioned, and perhaps even
> "Would you like a hug?", but "Do you
> hug?" or "Are you a person who hugs?" seems
> to me to be simply asking about whether it is a norm to
> them. (I have always felt this was also very clear from
> context that you mean "...in this context," not
> "ever.")
> Can you clarify for me?
> Kat*Reminder here: asserting boundaries can be
> dangerous! You don't know how people will react to being
> asked not to do something or to being told that they did
> something you didn't like. They may be hurt or
> bewildered. They may get defensive or angry. They may be
> rude or treat you like your boundaries are unimportant or
> silly. They may lash out. They may decide they don't
> like you. They may not want to be your friend anymore. They
> may scare you or hurt you. Those are all real, valid fears
> that can affect a person's willingness to enforce their
> boundaries. Please bear this in mind when judging people for
> not clearly and consistently enforcing their
> boundaries.On Dec
> 2, 2015 6:11 PM, "dancingmantis"
> wrote:No. You are
> intentionally misreading what I am saying. I am
> saying that within many groups, people would NOT reasonably
> assume that someone would “have an issue with you hugging
> them” unless they indicated otherwise (verbally or
> non-verbally), because hugging is a cultural norm. This
> becomes an issue in cross-cultural interaction where
> expectations are different. And… I think that
> “changing cultural modes” is EXACTLY what this
> conversation is about, and is absolutely necessary. I
> wouldn’t personally use a phrase as loaded as “rape
> culture”, but If you support efforts to ensure the r
> espect of consent, and to make violat ions of an indiv
> idual’s sense of of safety and autonomy socially
> unacceptable, you are attempting to “change c
> ulture”.
> —Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 3:00 PM,
> beatpony
> wrote:
> yea it continues that the only
> thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability to hug people who
> might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them --
> without obtaining consent. also bodily autonomy,
> including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.
> also, isn't this
> conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the
> community / our pretty busted national culture?hugs are dope. hug people
> you
> know want to be hugged. don't know? ask. where is the
> issue?
> On Wed, Dec
> 2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis < dancingmantis@comcast.net>
> wrote:Of course,
> maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting
> shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners.
> In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my
> personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would
> strongly disagree with you. —Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM,
> beatpony
> wrote:
> the danger of giving a hug
> that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
> working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily
> side-stepped by simply askin g.
>
> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving
> (again, with someone who you don't already know will
> want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you
> should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should
> not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting',
> 'reading', etc.
>
> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is
> respected, concretely.i'd be pretty upset if,
> instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't
> know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any
> reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead
> of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with
> friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
> read.
> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal.
> it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an
> event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it
> all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it
> wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a
> buzz-kill.asking for consent being
> argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk.
> let's not? yea! On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07
> PM, dancingmantis
> wrote:Thank you
> Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
> important topic. I personally give and receive
> frequent hugs without expli citly negotiating consent
> beforehand. I belong to multiple
> communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a
> cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is
> usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone
> doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but
> in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset
> if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to
> hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing
> responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements
> in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way.
> Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion
> about consent, clearer community standards, and higher
> accountability? I think that personally and professionally I
> have been a strong advocate for these
> things.
> It is
> a simple truth that people have different cultures and
> social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people
> misinterpret each other’s intentions, an
> d that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious
> social consequences. It is also very important
> to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the
> creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have
> far more serious consequences. As for
> individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal
> experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller
> than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not
> demonstrate evil intent. As a communit y, and as indiv
> iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal
> is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
> silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same
> perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or
> do we want to grow the community, create positive change,
> educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence?
> If we want the second, we need to acknowledg
> e that communication is a two way street and try to
> understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize
> them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid
> (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them
> listen and gain perspective. I understand that this is a
> very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi
> that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
> positive change, and that change comes from recruiting
> natural allies, not from creating
> divisions.
> —Alex
> Dancingmantis On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM,
> Debbi > 17@gmail.com> wrote: Aaaaand this is why we need
> to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray
> in between "rape apologist"/"victim
> blaming" and poor decision making and attending to
> the needs of actual assault survivors. I appreciate everyone who has
> expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are
> often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it
> even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who
> has, and who will, speak up. We have to be able to
> navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity
> without default ing to extreme corners and personal
> attacks or the conversation will go
> nowhere. If you want to help steer
> these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out,
> as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
> opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in
> dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than
> reactive and divisive. I truly love this community
> and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture
> toward something better. Debbi
> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0
> wrote:Wow. Nice
> rape culture apologia you got there. Too politically correct is
> the first refuge of assholes. &n
> bsp;Stay
> classy, and good day. Love y ou
> guys! On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05
> PM, <> wrote:
> < blockquote class="gmail_quote"
> style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>
> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing
> yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an
> unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not
> something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this
> group.
> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political
> correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes
> them cool.
>
> William/aka Dobromir
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> >
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
> wrote:
> >>
> Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of
> **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification
> all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity,
> mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate
> institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
> >
> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't
> cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of
> all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose
> vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to
> outright criminal.
> >
> > I get that.
> >
> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There
> has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to
> anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
> >
> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a
> level head.
> >> Jessie / Mama J> --
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You never knew because we legions of closeted non-huggy burners were quietly tolerating the awkward and uncomfortable hugging moments that the hugging culture was forcing upon us. But now we have a voice, and we will not be silenced!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: ldh354 via [mailto:ldh354 via]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 7:09 PM
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Subject: [dcburners] Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First

wow! I never knew this was worthy of such a discussion. when I was 1st introduced to the burner community over 10 yrs ago, hugging was not the norm for me but, it seemed the norm and I liked it. "nice loving community" I thought, went along with it and liked it.
All know burner friends just give me a hug, making me feel good and loved. If I am introduced or introduce myself and they offer me a handshake, I simply say "I prefer a hug" and so far nobody has said "I don't" (us guys usually do both) but if anyone ever does I would most certainly respect their requests and preference! even if they only would except a fist bump :-)

Lunar
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 12/6/15, SpaceVixen wrote:

Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2015, 6:25 PM

Finally! The discussion of
creepy hug avoidance I have longed for in the Burner community. I’ve always been a non-huggy person, and when I first started in the burner community, I got a lot of pro-hugging propaganda from the touchy-feely brigade. Like there was something psychologically wrong with me for not greeting people immediately with hugs, or I’d been terribly brainwashed damaged by our evil uptight non-hugging mainstream culture, ecetera. You guys know exactly what I’m talking about, don’t you? So it’s great to see people finally saying that ok, maybe some people just are naturally non-huggers, and that’s fine, and that all the pressure to hug or be judged as un-burnery is unfairly alienating and exclusionary to those of us who just aren’t naturally as huggy as others. From: lellykong [mailto:lellykong@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 2:47 PM
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First First of all, I love you. So glad this convo is happening. I second Debbi, beatpony, & Kathryn's perspective. Consent is so easy to ask about & makes the interaction so much more enjoyable.
One simple way I might suggest is the offer of "This way" (one hand extended to shake hands) "Or this way" (both arms extended to hug). Followed up with a kind word that either way is all good, like, "Works for me!" Then mov
ing on to "How are you?" without making it into a "thing." Yes, this is quite detailed, but that is what some folks need, & clarity goes hand in hand with consent. Quick. Easy. Fun. Non-confrontational. Consent.
Yay!

Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Kenneth wrote:Hey all i love to hug all. People, pets, trees, girls, boys, skinny , thick, attractive to various degrees .. even people of any religion or even atheists!!! Gasp! Please... hug me anytine... i even like those awkwardly long hugs that you just keep on hugging till all the huggin that needs to get done is done! On Dec 2, 2015 6:19 PM, "Kathryn McCulley" wrote:I, personally, prefer not to be hugged without consent (until I know someone well and we establish standing consent for hugs). I don't personally experience someone hugging me without my permission as as major a violation as it is clear to me some other people in this conversation do, but it is definitely a violation which does make me (often
intensely) uncomfortable. I'm socialized to generally go along with it to avoid awkwardness, hurt feelings, and unpredictable negative reactions*. Yes, it is my responsibility to enforce my own boundaries by informing people if it's relevant (because how else would they know?), but this is a preference of mine which I care about sig nificantly but often less than I care about not making people feel bad (or risking potential backlash).Alex, I find your perspective a little confusing. We are not in France where the social norm is cheek-kissing. We are all part of a hippy/left
ist (& often Pagan) community, and clearly (based on this conversation and also my experience) there is not a universal norm about whether to hug strangers without asking or not. (In my leftist circles, you ask, period. Not doing so is a definite faux pas and may cause people to keep an eye out in case you violate other boundaries.) It sounds like you think the norm is hugging and to ask first would be changing the norm, while my experience is that it varies wildly.Are you saying that you find the idea of you, personally, asking other Burners (who you have now been told explicitly at least some of will find you hugging them without asking to be a negative experience) whether you may hug them to be unacceptable because you mean it as a sign of openness and trust and so they ought to take it as you intend it?If so, that does not sound like actual openness to me. You're saying that your idea of what 'should' be the cultural norn and meaning not o
nly trumps that of other people in this community but ALSO that you don't care if you're making people uncomfortable/violating their boundaries as long as you meant well. I don't understand this. Can you explain it to me? Did I misunderstand?I was also confused by your statement about it imbuing the act with more meaning. I thought you wanted to mean things with it (honesty, openness)? What additional meaning do you find asking to add, if not that you respect the other person (which is what it means to me)?I can see that "May I hug you?" might sound like an ask in a way which creates the power imbalance you mentioned, and perhaps even "Would you like a hug?", but "Do you hug?" or "Are you a person who hugs?" seems to me to be simply asking about whether it is a norm to them. (I have always felt this was also very clear from context that you mean "...in this context," not
"ever.")
Can you clarify for me?
Kat*Reminder here: asserting boundaries can be dangerous! You don't know how people will react to being asked not to do something or to being told that they did something you didn't like. They may be hurt or bewildered. They may get defensive or angry. They may be rude or treat you like your boundaries are unimportant or silly. They may lash out. They may decide they don't like you. They may not want to be your friend anymore. They may scare you or hurt you. Those are all real, valid fears that can affect a person's willingness to enforce their boundaries. Please bear this in mind when judging people for not clearly and consistently enforcing their boundaries.On Dec 2, 2015 6:11 PM, "dancingmantis" wrote:No. You are intentionally misreading what I am saying. I am
saying that within many groups, people would NOT reasonably assume that someone would “have an issue with you hugging them” unless they indicated otherwise (verbally or non-verbally), because hugging is a cultural norm. This becomes an issue in cross-cultural interaction where expectations are different. And… I think that “changing cultural modes” is EXACTLY what this conversation is about, and is absolutely necessary. I wouldn’t personally use a phrase as loaded as “rape culture”, but If you support efforts to ensure the r espect of consent, and to make violat ions of an indiv idual’s sense of of safety and autonomy socially unacceptable, you are attempting to “change c ulture”.
—Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 3:00 PM,
beatpony
wrote:
yea it continues that the only
thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability to hug people who might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them -- without obtaining consent. also bodily autonomy, including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.
also, isn't this
conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the community / our pretty busted national culture?hugs are dope. hug people you know want to be hugged. don't know? ask. where is the issue?
On Wed, Dec
2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis < dancingmantis@comcast.net> wrote:Of course, maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners.
In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would strongly disagree with you. —Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM, beatpony
wrote:
the danger of giving a hug
that isn't desired to someone you don't have a working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by simply askin g.

even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.

we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected, concretely.i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any
reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately read.
consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal.
it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk.
let's not? yea! On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis wrote:Thank you Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an important topic. I personally give and receive frequent hugs without expli citly negotiating consent beforehand. I belong to multiple
communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way.
Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
It is
a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, an
d that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent. As a communit y, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence?
If we want the second, we need to acknowledg
e that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective. I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.
—Alex
Dancingmantis On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi 17@gmail.com> wrote: Aaaaand this is why we need to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray in between "rape apologist"/"victim blaming" and poor decision making and attending to the needs of actual assault survivors. I appreciate everyone who has expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who has, and who will, speak up. We have to be able to navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity without default ing to extreme corners and personal attacks or the conversation will go nowhere. If you want to help steer these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out, as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than reactive and divisive. I truly love this community and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture toward something better. Debbi On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0 wrote:Wow. Nice rape culture apologia you got there. Too politically correct is the first refuge of assholes. &n
bsp;Stay
classy, and good day. Love y ou
guys! On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05
PM, <> wrote:
< blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!

If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.

William/aka Dobromir

Sent from my iPhone

>
On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
wrote:
>>
Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>
> I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
>
> I get that.
>
> I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>
> Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>> Jessie / Mama J> --
> Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176 > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist > Stop emails for this post: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
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Love it!
On Dec 6, 2015 9:22 PM, "PJ"
wrote:

> I've been following this discussion and appreciate the honesty and
> open-mindedness that people have been showing for the most part. While I
> personally don't mind hugs (especially from people I know), I don't think
> I've ever been to a burn where I haven't heard people expressing
> frustration at unwanted touching, particularly hugs. I don't think hugging
> is any more rooted in the culture than discomfort with hugging. Both have
> probably been there from the beginning. Maybe people just feel more
> comfortable talking about it now that discussions around consent have grown
> more and more common. It seems weirdly entitled to go around thinking
> everyone should want you to touch them and radically noninclusive to argue
> for a space where the default assumption is that everyone wants to be
> touched. Also, seems pretty straightforward to not touch people without
> some indication that it's ok. This probably something we should doing
> better as a comm unity than the default world, not worse.
>
> Also, I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned more, but this appears to
> be a gendered issue: women being the recipients of most of the unwanted
> attention and men being the source. It's worth considering whether the
> sides of this discussion breakdown along gendered lines. I'd particularly
> hope that straight cis-men lend an open ear to others who may have very
> different experiences based on their gender and sexual orientation.
>
> <3
>
> ~PJ
>
>
>
> PJ Rey
>
> pjrey.tumblr.com
>
> University of Maryland
> Department of Sociology
>
> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 7:08 PM, <> wrote:
>
>> wow! I never knew this was worthy of such a discussion. when I was 1st
>> introduced to the burner community over 10 yrs ago, hugging was not the
>> norm for me but, it seemed the norm and I liked it. "nice loving community"
>> I thought, went along with it and liked it.
>> All know burner friends just give me a hug, making me feel good and
>> loved. If I am introduced or introduce myself and they offer me a
>> handshake, I simply say "I prefer a hug" and so far nobody has said "I
>> don't" (us guys usually do both) but if anyone ever does I would most
>> certainly respect their requests and preference! even if they only would
>> except a fist bump :-)
>>
>> Lunar
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sun, 12/6/15, SpaceVixen wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
>> To: dcburners@dcburners.org
>> Date: Sunday, December 6, 2015, 6:25 PM
>>
>> Finally! The discussion of
>> creepy hug avoidance I have longed for in the Burner
>> community. I’ve always been a non-huggy
>> person, and when I first started in the burner community, I
>> got a lot of pro-hugging propaganda from the touchy-feely
>> brigade. Like there was something psychologically wrong with
>> me for not greeting people immediately with hugs, or I’d
>> been terribly brainwashed damaged by our evil uptight
>> non-hugging mainstream culture, ecetera. You guys know
>> exactly what I’m talking about, don’t you?
>> So it’s great to see people
>> finally saying that ok, maybe some people just are naturally
>> non-huggers, and that’s fine, and that all the pressure to
>> hug or be judged as un-burnery is unfairly alienating and
>> exclusionary to those of us who just aren’t naturally as
>> huggy as others. From: lellykong [mailto:lellykong@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 2:47 PM
>> To: dcburners@dcburners.org
>> Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not
>> To Ask First First of all, I love you. So
>> glad this convo is happening. I second Debbi, beatpony,
>> & Kathryn's perspective. Consent is so easy to ask
>> about & makes the interaction so much more enjoyable.
>> One simple way I might suggest is the offer of "This
>> way" (one hand extended to shake hands) "Or this
>> way" (both arms extended to hug). Followed up with a
>> kind word that either way is all good, like, "Works for
>> me!" Then mov
>> ing on to "How are you?" without making it into a
>> "thing." Yes, this is quite detailed, but that is
>> what some folks need, & clarity goes hand in hand with
>> consent. Quick. Easy. Fun. Non-confrontational. Consent.
>> Yay!
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Kenneth
>> wrote:Hey
>> all i love to hug all. People, pets, trees, girls, boys,
>> skinny , thick, attractive to various degrees .. even people
>> of any religion or even atheists!!! Gasp! Please... hug me
>> anytine... i even like those awkwardly long hugs that you
>> just keep on hugging till all the huggin that needs to get
>> done is done! On
>> Dec 2, 2015 6:19 PM, "Kathryn McCulley"
>> wrote:I, personally, prefer not to be hugged without
>> consent (until I know someone well and we establish standing
>> consent for hugs). I don't personally experience someone
>> hugging me without my permission as as major a violation as
>> it is clear to me some other people in this conversation do,
>> but it is definitely a violation which does make me (often
>> intensely) uncomfortable. I'm socialized to generally go
>> along with it to avoid awkwardness, hurt feelings, and
>> unpredictable negative reactions*. Yes, it is my
>> responsibility to enforce my own boundaries by informing
>> people if it's relevant (because how else would they
>> know?), but this is a preference of mine which I care about
>> sig nificantly but often less than I care about not making
>> people feel bad (or risking potential backlash).Alex,
>> I find your perspective a little confusing. We are not in
>> France where the social norm is cheek-kissing. We are all
>> part of a hippy/left
>> ist (& often Pagan) community, and clearly (based on
>> this conversation and also my experience) there is not a
>> universal norm about whether to hug strangers without asking
>> or not. (In my leftist circles, you ask, period. Not doing
>> so is a definite faux pas and may cause people to keep an
>> eye out in case you violate other boundaries.) It sounds
>> like you think the norm is hugging and to ask first would be
>> changing the norm, while my experience is that it varies
>> wildly.Are you saying that you find the idea of you,
>> personally, asking other Burners (who you have now been told
>> explicitly at least some of will find you hugging them
>> without asking to be a negative experience) whether you may
>> hug them to be unacceptable because you mean it as a sign of
>> openness and trust and so they ought to take it as you
>> intend it?If so, that does not sound like actual
>> openness to me. You're saying that your idea of what
>> 'should' be the cultural norn and meaning not o
>> nly trumps that of other people in this community but ALSO
>> that you don't care if you're making people
>> uncomfortable/violating their boundaries as long as you
>> meant well. I don't understand this. Can you explain it
>> to me? Did I misunderstand?I was also confused by
>> your statement about it imbuing the act with more meaning. I
>> thought you wanted to mean things with it (honesty,
>> openness)? What additional meaning do you find asking to
>> add, if not that you respect the other person (which is what
>> it means to me)?I can see that "May I hug
>> you?" might sound like an ask in a way which creates
>> the power imbalance you mentioned, and perhaps even
>> "Would you like a hug?", but "Do you
>> hug?" or "Are you a person who hugs?" seems
>> to me to be simply asking about whether it is a norm to
>> them. (I have always felt this was also very clear from
>> context that you mean "...in this context," not
>> "ever.")
>> Can you clarify for me?
>> Kat*Reminder here: asserting boundaries can be
>> dangerous! You don't know how people will react to being
>> asked not to do something or to being told that they did
>> something you didn't like. They may be hurt or
>> bewildered. They may get defensive or angry. They may be
>> rude or treat you like your boundaries are unimportant or
>> silly. They may lash out. They may decide they don't
>> like you. They may not want to be your friend anymore. They
>> may scare you or hurt you. Those are all real, valid fears
>> that can affect a person's willingness to enforce their
>> boundaries. Please bear this in mind when judging people for
>> not clearly and consistently enforcing their
>> boundaries.On Dec
>> 2, 2015 6:11 PM, "dancingmantis"
>> wrote:No. You are
>> intentionally misreading what I am saying. I am
>> saying that within many groups, people would NOT reasonably
>> assume that someone would “have an issue with you hugging
>> them” unless they indicated otherwise (verbally or
>> non-verbally), because hugging is a cultural norm. This
>> becomes an issue in cross-cultural interaction where
>> expectations are different. And… I think that
>> “changing cultural modes” is EXACTLY what this
>> conversation is about, and is absolutely necessary. I
>> wouldn’t personally use a phrase as loaded as “rape
>> culture”, but If you support efforts to ensure the r
>> espect of consent, and to make violat ions of an indiv
>> idual’s sense of of safety and autonomy socially
>> unacceptable, you are attempting to “change c
>> ulture”.
>> —Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 3:00 PM,
>> beatpony
>> wrote:
>> yea it continues that the only
>> thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability to hug people who
>> might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them --
>> without obtaining consent. also bodily autonomy,
>> including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.
>> also, isn't this
>> conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the
>> community / our pretty busted national culture?hugs are dope. hug people
>> you
>> know want to be hugged. don't know? ask. where is the
>> issue?
>> On Wed, Dec
>> 2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis < dancingmantis@comcast.net>
>> wrote:Of course,
>> maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting
>> shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners.
>> In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my
>> personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would
>> strongly disagree with you. —Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM,
>> beatpony
>> wrote:
>> the danger of giving a hug
>> that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
>> working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily
>> side-stepped by simply askin g.
>>
>> even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving
>> (again, with someone who you don't already know will
>> want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you
>> should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should
>> not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting',
>> 'reading', etc.
>>
>> we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is
>> respected, concretely.i'd be pretty upset if,
>> instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't
>> know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any
>> reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead
>> of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with
>> friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
>> read.
>> consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal.
>> it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an
>> event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it
>> all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it
>> wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a
>> buzz-kill.asking for consent being
>> argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk.
>> let's not? yea! On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07
>> PM, dancingmantis
>> wrote:Thank you
>> Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
>> important topic. I personally give and receive
>> frequent hugs without expli citly negotiating consent
>> beforehand. I belong to multiple
>> communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a
>> cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is
>> usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone
>> doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but
>> in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset
>> if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to
>> hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing
>> responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements
>> in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way.
>> Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion
>> about consent, clearer community standards, and higher
>> accountability? I think that personally and professionally I
>> have been a strong advocate for these
>> things.
>> It is
>> a simple truth that people have different cultures and
>> social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people
>> misinterpret each other’s intentions, an
>> d that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious
>> social consequences. It is also very important
>> to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the
>> creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have
>> far more serious consequences. As for
>> individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal
>> experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller
>> than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not
>> demonstrate evil intent. As a communit y, and as indiv
>> iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal
>> is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
>> silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same
>> perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or
>> do we want to grow the community, create positive change,
>> educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence?
>> If we want the second, we need to acknowledg
>> e that communication is a two way street and try to
>> understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize
>> them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid
>> (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them
>> listen and gain perspective. I understand that this is a
>> very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi
>> that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
>> positive change, and that change comes from recruiting
>> natural allies, not from creating
>> divisions.
>> —Alex
>> Dancingmantis On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM,
>> Debbi >> 17@gmail.com> wrote: Aaaaand this is why we need
>> to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray
>> in between "rape apologist"/"victim
>> blaming" and poor decision making and attending to
>> the needs of actual assault survivors. I appreciate everyone who has
>> expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are
>> often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it
>> even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who
>> has, and who will, speak up. We have to be able to
>> navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity
>> without default ing to extreme corners and personal
>> attacks or the conversation will go
>> nowhere. If you want to help steer
>> these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out,
>> as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
>> opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in
>> dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than
>> reactive and divisive. I truly love this community
>> and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture
>> toward something better. Debbi
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0
>> wrote:Wow. Nice
>> rape culture apologia you got there. Too politically correct is
>> the first refuge of assholes. &n
>> bsp;Stay
>> classy, and good day. Love y ou
>> guys! On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05
>> PM, <> wrote:
>> < blockquote class="gmail_quote"
>> style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>> solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
>>
>> If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing
>> yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
>> If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an
>> unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
>> And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not
>> something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this
>> group.
>> I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political
>> correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes
>> them cool.
>>
>> William/aka Dobromir
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> >
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of
>> **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification
>> all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity,
>> mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate
>> institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>> >
>> > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't
>> cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of
>> all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose
>> vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to
>> outright criminal.
>> >
>> > I get that.
>> >
>> > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There
>> has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to
>> anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>> >
>> > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a
>> level head.
>> >> Jessie / Mama J> --
>> > Full post: http://dcburners.org/node/176
>> > Manage my subscriptions: http://dcburners.org/mailinglist
>> > Stop emails for this post:
>> http://dcburners.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/176
>> --
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This hugging discussion has been open and respectful and that is just one of the wonderful things I love about our community.  However, this "consent" discussion was initiated due to much more serious repeated and inappropriate allegations which regretfully were never reported to authorities and many loving and dedicated Burners have spent months figuring out how to react.  As the "consent" statement fairly states -its difficult to be judge and jury, especially with the passage of time.
The beauty and foundation of our community is love, support and acceptance which allows all of us to feel safe to shine. If you find yourself inappropriately touched please involve others and involve the authorities.   
Peace and love to a beautiful community I call my extended family.    Steven Greenwood

From: PJ
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2015 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [dcburners] Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First

I've been following this discussion and appreciate the honesty and open-mindedness that people have been showing for the most part. While I personally don't mind hugs (especially from people I know), I don't think I've ever been to a burn where I haven't heard people expressing frustration at unwanted touching, particularly hugs. I don't think hugging is any more rooted in the culture than discomfort with hugging. Both have probably been there from the beginning. Maybe people just feel more comfortable talking about it now that discussions around consent have grown more and more common. It seems weirdly entitled to go around thinking everyone should want you to touch them and radically noninclusive to argue for a space where the default assumption is that everyone wants to be touched. Also, seems pretty straightforward to not touch people without some indication that it's ok. This probably something we should doing better as a comm unity than the default world, not worse.

Also, I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned more, but this appears to be a gendered issue: women being the recipients of most of the unwanted attention and men being the source. It's worth considering whether the sides of this discussion breakdown along gendered lines. I'd particularly hope that straight cis-men lend an open ear to others who may have very different experiences based on their gender and sexual orientation.

<3

~PJ

PJ Rey

pjrey.tumblr.com

University of Maryland
Department of Sociology

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 7:08 PM, <> wrote:

wow! I never knew this was worthy of such a discussion. when I was 1st introduced to the burner community over 10 yrs ago, hugging was not the norm for me but, it seemed the norm and I liked it. "nice loving community" I thought, went along with it and liked it.
All know burner friends just give me a hug, making me feel good and loved. If I am introduced or introduce myself and they offer me a handshake, I simply say "I prefer a hug" and so far nobody has said "I don't" (us guys usually do both) but if anyone ever does I would most certainly respect their requests and preference! even if they only would except a fist bump :-)

Lunar
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 12/6/15, SpaceVixen wrote:

 Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
 To: dcburners@dcburners.org
 Date: Sunday, December 6, 2015, 6:25 PM

 Finally! The discussion of
 creepy hug avoidance I have longed for in the Burner
 community. I’ve always been a non-huggy
 person, and when I first started in the burner community, I
 got a lot of pro-hugging propaganda from the touchy-feely
 brigade. Like there was something psychologically wrong with
 me for not greeting people immediately with hugs, or I’d
 been terribly brainwashed damaged by our evil uptight
 non-hugging mainstream culture, ecetera. You guys know
 exactly what I’m talking about, don’t you?   
 So it’s great to see people
 finally saying that ok, maybe some people just are naturally
 non-huggers, and that’s fine, and that all the pressure to
 hug or be judged as un-burnery is unfairly alienating and
 exclusionary to those of us who just aren’t naturally as
 huggy as others.       From: lellykong [mailto:lellykong@gmail.com]
 Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 2:47 PM
 To: dcburners@dcburners.org
 Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not
 To Ask First  First of all, I love you. So
 glad this convo is happening.  I second Debbi, beatpony,
 & Kathryn's perspective.  Consent is so easy to ask
 about & makes the interaction so much more enjoyable.
 One simple way I might suggest is the offer of "This
 way" (one hand extended to shake hands) "Or this
 way" (both arms extended to hug). Followed up with a
 kind word that either way is all good, like, "Works for
 me!" Then mov
  ing on to "How are you?" without making it into a
 "thing." Yes, this is quite detailed, but that is
 what some folks need, & clarity goes hand in hand with
 consent. Quick. Easy. Fun. Non-confrontational. Consent.
 Yay!

 Sent from my iPhone
 On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Kenneth
 wrote:Hey
 all i love to hug all. People, pets, trees, girls, boys,
 skinny , thick, attractive to various degrees .. even people
 of any religion or even atheists!!! Gasp! Please... hug me
 anytine... i even like those awkwardly long hugs that you
 just keep on hugging till all the huggin that needs to get
 done is done! On
 Dec 2, 2015 6:19 PM, "Kathryn McCulley"
 wrote:I, personally, prefer not to be hugged without
 consent (until I know someone well and we establish standing
 consent for hugs). I don't personally experience someone
 hugging me without my permission as as major a violation as
 it is clear to me some other people in this conversation do,
 but it is definitely a violation which does make me (often
 intensely) uncomfortable. I'm socialized to generally go
 along with it to avoid awkwardness, hurt feelings, and
 unpredictable negative reactions*. Yes, it is my
 responsibility to enforce my own boundaries by informing
 people if it's relevant (because how else would they
 know?), but this is a preference of mine which I care about
 sig nificantly but often less than I care about not making
 people feel bad (or risking potential backlash).Alex,
 I find your perspective a little confusing. We are not in
 France where the social norm is cheek-kissing. We are all
 part of a hippy/left
  ist (& often Pagan) community, and clearly (based on
 this conversation and also my experience) there is not a
 universal norm about whether to hug strangers without asking
 or not. (In my leftist circles, you ask, period. Not doing
 so is a definite faux pas and may cause people to keep an
 eye out in case you violate other boundaries.) It sounds
 like you think the norm is hugging and to ask first would be
 changing the norm, while my experience is that it varies
 wildly.Are you saying that you find the idea of you,
 personally, asking other Burners (who you have now been told
 explicitly at least some of will find you hugging them
 without asking to be a negative experience) whether you may
 hug them to be unacceptable because you mean it as a sign of
 openness and trust and so they ought to take it as you
 intend it?If so, that does not sound like actual
 openness to me. You're saying that your idea of what
 'should' be the cultural norn and meaning not o
  nly trumps that of other people in this community but ALSO
 that you don't care if you're making people
 uncomfortable/violating their boundaries as long as you
 meant well. I don't understand this. Can you explain it
 to me? Did I misunderstand?I was also confused by
 your statement about it imbuing the act with more meaning. I
 thought you wanted to mean things with it (honesty,
 openness)? What additional meaning do you find asking to
 add, if not that you respect the other person (which is what
 it means to me)?I can see that "May I hug
 you?" might sound like an ask in a way which creates
 the power imbalance you mentioned, and perhaps even
 "Would you like a hug?", but "Do you
 hug?" or "Are you a person who hugs?" seems
 to me to be simply asking about whether it is a norm to
 them. (I have always felt this was also very clear from
 context that you mean "...in this context," not
 "ever.")
 Can you clarify for me?
 Kat*Reminder here: asserting boundaries can be
 dangerous! You don't know how people will react to being
 asked not to do something or to being told that they did
 something you didn't like. They may be hurt or
 bewildered. They may get defensive or angry. They may be
 rude or treat you like your boundaries are unimportant or
 silly. They may lash out. They may decide they don't
 like you. They may not want to be your friend anymore. They
 may scare you or hurt you. Those are all real, valid fears
 that can affect a person's willingness to enforce their
 boundaries. Please bear this in mind when judging people for
 not clearly and consistently enforcing their
 boundaries.On Dec
 2, 2015 6:11 PM, "dancingmantis"
 wrote:No. You are
 intentionally misreading what I am saying. I am
  saying that within many groups, people would NOT reasonably
 assume that someone would “have an issue with you hugging
 them” unless they indicated otherwise (verbally or
 non-verbally), because hugging is a cultural norm. This
 becomes an issue in cross-cultural interaction where
 expectations are different.  And… I think that
 “changing cultural modes” is EXACTLY what this
 conversation is about, and is absolutely necessary. I
 wouldn’t personally use a phrase as loaded as “rape
 culture”, but If you support efforts to ensure the r
 espect of consent, and to make violat ions of an indiv
 idual’s sense of of safety and autonomy socially
 unacceptable, you are attempting to “change c
 ulture”.
  —Alex  On Dec 2, 2015, at 3:00 PM,
 beatpony
 wrote:
  yea it continues that the only
 thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability to hug people who
 might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them --
 without obtaining consent. also bodily autonomy,
 including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.
 also, isn't this
 conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the
 community / our pretty busted national culture?hugs are dope. hug people you
 know want to be hugged. don't know? ask. where is the
 issue?
  On Wed, Dec
 2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis < dancingmantis@comcast.net>
 wrote:Of course,
 maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting
 shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners.
 In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my
 personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would
 strongly disagree with you.  —Alex  On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM,
 beatpony
 wrote:
  the danger of giving a hug
 that isn't desired to someone you don't have a
 working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily
 side-stepped by simply askin g.

 even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving
 (again, with someone who you don't already know will
 want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you
 should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should
 not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting',
 'reading', etc.

 we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is
 respected, concretely.i'd be pretty upset if,
 instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't
 know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any
 reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead
 of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with
 friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately
 read.
 consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal.
 it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an
 event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it
 all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it
 wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a
 buzz-kill.asking for consent being
 argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk.
 let's not? yea!  On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07
 PM, dancingmantis
 wrote:Thank you
 Debbi for this very measured and rational response to an
 important topic.   I personally give and receive
 frequent hugs without expli citly negotiating consent
 beforehand. I belong to multiple
   communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a
 cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is
 usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone
 doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but
 in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset
 if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to
 hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing
 responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements
 in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way.
 Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion
 about consent, clearer community standards, and higher
 accountability? I think that personally and professionally I
 have been a strong advocate for these
 things.
  It is
 a simple truth that people have different cultures and
 social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people
 misinterpret each other’s intentions, an
  d that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious
 social consequences. It is also very important
 to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the
 creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have
 far more serious consequences. As for
 individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal
 experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller
 than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not
 demonstrate evil intent.  As a communit y, and as indiv
 iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal
 is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into
 silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same
 perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or
 do we want to grow the community, create positive change,
 educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence?
 If we want the second, we need to acknowledg
  e that communication is a two way street and try to
 understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize
 them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid
 (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them
 listen and gain perspective.  I understand that this is a
 very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi
 that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards
 positive change, and that change comes from recruiting
 natural allies, not from creating
 divisions.
  —Alex
 Dancingmantis    On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM,
 Debbi   17@gmail.com> wrote:  Aaaaand this is why we need
 to have these conversations. Because there is so much gray
 in between "rape apologist"/"victim
 blaming" and poor decision making and attending to
 the needs of actual assault survivors.  I appreciate everyone who has
 expressed an opinion, and I recognize these are
 often rooted in personal experiences, which makes it
 even harder to keep perspective. Thank you to everyone who
 has, and who will, speak up.  We have to be able to
 navigate these gray areas with respect and sensitivity
 without default ing to extreme corners and personal
 attacks or the conversation will go
 nowhere.   If you want to help steer
 these difficult conversations, I encourage you to reach out,
 as Patty mentioned, and as leaders emerge there will be
 opportunities to come together and hopefully engage in
 dialogue that is productive and proactive, rather than
 reactive and divisive.   I truly love this community
 and I believe we have the potential to shift our culture
 toward something better.   Debbi
 On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0
 wrote:Wow. Nice
 rape culture apologia you got there. Too politically correct is
 the first refuge of assholes. &n
  bsp;Stay
 classy, and good day.   Love y ou
 guys!   On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05
 PM, <> wrote:
 < blockquote class="gmail_quote"
 style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
 solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!

 If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing
 yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
 If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an
 unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
 And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not
 something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this
 group.
 I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political
 correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes
 them cool.

 William/aka Dobromir

 Sent from my iPhone

 >
   On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
 wrote:
 >>
 Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of
 **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification
 all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity,
 mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate
 institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
 >
 > I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't
 cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of
 all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose
 vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to
 outright criminal.
 >
 > I get that.
 >
 > I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There
 has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to
 anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
 >
 > Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a
 level head.
 >> Jessie / Mama J> --
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