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Re: [dcburners] Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
Huggate.
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-------- Original message --------
From: SpaceVixen
Date: 06/12/2015 9:42 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Subject: Re: [dcburners] Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
You never knew because we legions of closeted non-huggy burners were quietly tolerating the awkward and uncomfortable hugging moments that the hugging culture was forcing upon us. But now we have a voice, and we will not be silenced!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: ldh354 via [mailto:ldh354 via]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 7:09 PM
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Subject: [dcburners] Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
wow! I never knew this was worthy of such a discussion. when I was 1st introduced to the burner community over 10 yrs ago, hugging was not the norm for me but, it seemed the norm and I liked it. "nice loving community" I thought, went along with it and liked it.
All know burner friends just give me a hug, making me feel good and loved. If I am introduced or introduce myself and they offer me a handshake, I simply say "I prefer a hug" and so far nobody has said "I don't" (us guys usually do both) but if anyone ever does I would most certainly respect their requests and preference! even if they only would except a fist bump :-)
Lunar
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On Sun, 12/6/15, SpaceVixen
Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2015, 6:25 PM
Finally! The discussion of
creepy hug avoidance I have longed for in the Burner community. I’ve always been a non-huggy person, and when I first started in the burner community, I got a lot of pro-hugging propaganda from the touchy-feely brigade. Like there was something psychologically wrong with me for not greeting people immediately with hugs, or I’d been terribly brainwashed damaged by our evil uptight non-hugging mainstream culture, ecetera. You guys know exactly what I’m talking about, don’t you? So it’s great to see people finally saying that ok, maybe some people just are naturally non-huggers, and that’s fine, and that all the pressure to hug or be judged as un-burnery is unfairly alienating and exclusionary to those of us who just aren’t naturally as huggy as others. From: lellykong [mailto:lellykong@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 2:47 PM
To: dcburners@dcburners.org
Subject: Re: [dcburners] Hugging: To Ask First or Not To Ask First First of all, I love you. So glad this convo is happening. I second Debbi, beatpony, & Kathryn's perspective. Consent is so easy to ask about & makes the interaction so much more enjoyable.
One simple way I might suggest is the offer of "This way" (one hand extended to shake hands) "Or this way" (both arms extended to hug). Followed up with a kind word that either way is all good, like, "Works for me!" Then mov
ing on to "How are you?" without making it into a "thing." Yes, this is quite detailed, but that is what some folks need, & clarity goes hand in hand with consent. Quick. Easy. Fun. Non-confrontational. Consent.
Yay!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Kenneth
intensely) uncomfortable. I'm socialized to generally go along with it to avoid awkwardness, hurt feelings, and unpredictable negative reactions*. Yes, it is my responsibility to enforce my own boundaries by informing people if it's relevant (because how else would they know?), but this is a preference of mine which I care about sig nificantly but often less than I care about not making people feel bad (or risking potential backlash).Alex, I find your perspective a little confusing. We are not in France where the social norm is cheek-kissing. We are all part of a hippy/left
ist (& often Pagan) community, and clearly (based on this conversation and also my experience) there is not a universal norm about whether to hug strangers without asking or not. (In my leftist circles, you ask, period. Not doing so is a definite faux pas and may cause people to keep an eye out in case you violate other boundaries.) It sounds like you think the norm is hugging and to ask first would be changing the norm, while my experience is that it varies wildly.Are you saying that you find the idea of you, personally, asking other Burners (who you have now been told explicitly at least some of will find you hugging them without asking to be a negative experience) whether you may hug them to be unacceptable because you mean it as a sign of openness and trust and so they ought to take it as you intend it?If so, that does not sound like actual openness to me. You're saying that your idea of what 'should' be the cultural norn and meaning not o
nly trumps that of other people in this community but ALSO that you don't care if you're making people uncomfortable/violating their boundaries as long as you meant well. I don't understand this. Can you explain it to me? Did I misunderstand?I was also confused by your statement about it imbuing the act with more meaning. I thought you wanted to mean things with it (honesty, openness)? What additional meaning do you find asking to add, if not that you respect the other person (which is what it means to me)?I can see that "May I hug you?" might sound like an ask in a way which creates the power imbalance you mentioned, and perhaps even "Would you like a hug?", but "Do you hug?" or "Are you a person who hugs?" seems to me to be simply asking about whether it is a norm to them. (I have always felt this was also very clear from context that you mean "...in this context," not
"ever.")
Can you clarify for me?
Kat*Reminder here: asserting boundaries can be dangerous! You don't know how people will react to being asked not to do something or to being told that they did something you didn't like. They may be hurt or bewildered. They may get defensive or angry. They may be rude or treat you like your boundaries are unimportant or silly. They may lash out. They may decide they don't like you. They may not want to be your friend anymore. They may scare you or hurt you. Those are all real, valid fears that can affect a person's willingness to enforce their boundaries. Please bear this in mind when judging people for not clearly and consistently enforcing their boundaries.On Dec 2, 2015 6:11 PM, "dancingmantis"
saying that within many groups, people would NOT reasonably assume that someone would “have an issue with you hugging them” unless they indicated otherwise (verbally or non-verbally), because hugging is a cultural norm. This becomes an issue in cross-cultural interaction where expectations are different. And… I think that “changing cultural modes” is EXACTLY what this conversation is about, and is absolutely necessary. I wouldn’t personally use a phrase as loaded as “rape culture”, but If you support efforts to ensure the r espect of consent, and to make violat ions of an indiv idual’s sense of of safety and autonomy socially unacceptable, you are attempting to “change c ulture”.
—Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 3:00 PM,
beatpony
wrote:
yea it continues that the only
thing yr tryna do is argue for the ability to hug people who might reasonably have an issue with you hugging them -- without obtaining consent. also bodily autonomy, including in sex / play, is pretty straightforward.
also, isn't this
conversation about *changing* cultural modes within the community / our pretty busted national culture?hugs are dope. hug people you know want to be hugged. don't know? ask. where is the issue?
On Wed, Dec
2, 2015 at 5:57 PM, dancingmantis < dancingmantis@comcast.net> wrote:Of course, maybe your point is that hugging as a form of greeting shouldn’t be a culturally accepted norm among DC Burners.
In that case, I would respect your opinion… but with my personal Euro/hippy/leftist/pagan upbringing I would strongly disagree with you. —Alex On Dec 2, 2015, at 2:15 PM, beatpony
wrote:
the danger of giving a hug
that isn't desired to someone you don't have a working understanding of hug-wanting with is pretty easily side-stepped by simply askin g.
even a subtle suggestion that non-negotiated hug-giving (again, with someone who you don't already know will want a hug from you within like 99%, and even then you should probly ask, in some way) should be an option, should not be on the table. same goes with 'interpreting', 'reading', etc.
we want to know for sure. that is how space and autonomy is respected, concretely.i'd be pretty upset if, instead of asking, someone i didn't know (or didn't know well, or didn't want to hug for seriously any
reason) tried to "interpret" what i wanted instead of just asking. not-asking is a thing you can broach with friends, with people who you know, who you can accurately read.
consent is super, super duper easy to inquir e after, yal.
it doesn't have to interrupt the 'flow' of an event or interaction, and obtaining an affirmative makes it all the better; especially if the alternative, getting it wrong, is traumatizing. THAT is a buzz-kill.asking for consent being argued to be a buzzkill, even in a roundabout way, is bunk.
let's not? yea! On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:07 PM, dancingmantis
communities where hugging as a form o f greeting is a cultural norm (like hand shaking). I think that it is usually pretty easy to tell by body language if someone doesn’t feel comfortable with a hug as a greeting… but in theory I might misinterpret the signals. I would be upset if, rather than explicitly saying “I don’t want to hug”, someone accused me of assaulting them. Am I placing responsibility on the “victim”? Some of the statements in this discussion would seem to characterize it this way.
Does that mean that I am not an ad vocate for a discussion about consent, clearer community standards, and higher accountability? I think that personally and professionally I have been a strong advocate for these things.
It is
a simple truth that people have different cultures and social expectations. It is a legitimate concern that people misinterpret each other’s intentions, an
d that perceptions of predatory behavior may have serious social consequences. It is also very important to acknowledge that rape, assault, victim blaming, or the creation of an environment of fear and intimidation have far more serious consequences. As for individual perceptions regarding these issues, personal experience may cause one issue to seem bigger or smaller than it actually is. This is human nature, and does not demonstrate evil intent. As a communit y, and as indiv iduals, I think we need to decide what our long term goal is. Do we want to be reactionary, and exile or chastise into silence anyone who doesn’t already share the same perspectives and life experiences that some of us hold? Or do we want to grow the community, create positive change, educate, and potentiate empathy and emotional intelligence?
If we want the second, we need to acknowledg
e that communication is a two way street and try to understand the people we disagree with, rather than demonize them. Maybe acknowledging their feelings as personally valid (instead of engaging in an ad hominem attack) will help them listen and gain perspective. I understand that this is a very personal topic for a lot of people. I agree with Debbi that we benefit most from channeling that passion towards positive change, and that change comes from recruiting natural allies, not from creating divisions.
—Alex
Dancingmantis On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Debbi
hift our culture toward something better. Debbi On Tuesday, December 1, 2015, Chris0
bsp;Stay
classy, and good day. Love y ou
guys! On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:05
PM, <> wrote:
< blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank you, Mama J!
If you are a Burner you should have to fear expressing yourself (a long hug...) and know if wanted.
If you are a Burner you should know how to handle an unwanted behavior and say 'no'.
And I get it too - assault is not cool but this is not something a Burner should ever do or he/she be part of this group.
I'm afraid of we turning to a 'political correct' group of DC people who thing a Burner makes them cool.
William/aka Dobromir
Sent from my iPhone
>
On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:40 PM, jessienewburn
wrote:
>>
Take note, y'all: There is a ramping up, too, of **vicitm culture** in our society and a thin-skin-ification all around wherein everyone's allergy, food sensitivity, mood of the day and particular needs seem to mandate institutional level support to ensure non-victimhood.
>
> I *get* a thousand times over that assault ain't cool, consent is key and our community, in its embracing of all, gets its share (or more than its share) of people whose vibe -- and sometimes actions -- range from creepy to outright criminal.
>
> I get that.
>
> I'm simply being the voice of a perspective: There has been a growing cultural shift toward over-responding to anyone's hurt, or PERCEPTION of hurt.
>
> Just sayin'. Beware the culture change and keep a level head.
>> Jessie / Mama J> --
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